A Frugality/Quality of Life Question

This is something we struggle with a lot. We like X product. It costs $.99 . To lower the cost, we try cheaper substitutes.

Sometimes those work and we switch to the new product.
Sometimes, it’s acceptable, but not great.

Or, we resolve to save $ by making our own or doing without.

The easiest example I can think of off the top is coffee. For years we drank SB French Roast. When they stopped their mailing program (used to mail it to us) after they opened a store in every town in America, for a while we bought their store brand stuff.

Frequently, it was stale or not as good.

We tried roasting our own. That worked but added a whole new set of chores and errands (to go buy the green coffee beans). The easy thing there was to start buying the green beans mail order. Hurrah!

Nope. The company that sold the green beans stopped free shipping and it costs as much or more than the expensive stuff at the market and now we still have to roast the beans…? Nope.

So we tried other brands. When we were very broke, we tried our local cheap market’s French Roast beans, multiple times. It was awful stuff.

So, we found another brand that makes acceptable coffee and isn’t usually as pricey as the SB beans were (Peets). We stock up when it’s on sale and do what my dad did and keep the unused coffee beans in the freezer.

It’s still expensive. I’d love to make it a lot less so. We tried mixing old grounds into new ones. Not good. We tried mixing the not-great beans in too. Also not good. We have reduced how much coffee we drink quite a lot. It’s still expensive.

So, how do you handle situations like this? Do you just put up and shut up and use food you don’t like because it’s cheap? Do you buy the pricier items and dole them out in tiny increments? Figure it’s just the cost of modern living?

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I think this is a great question, especially now with the price of seemingly everything going up.

I think of it in two parts - will I just pay the higher price or will I try and find something cheaper? For me, this depends a lot of how much “quality of life” I get from it. I don’t have a way of measuring it, more based on how I feel. Coffee is something I really like a lot and drink a lot, so that’s something I consider adds a lot to my quality of life. I buy my milk from the farm up the street because it tastes amazing and supports a family farm, even when the prices go up. But I have a favorite brand of fabric softener that I just can’t justify paying the crazy high price for because it just doesn’t add a lot to my quality of life.

For the find something cheaper - it depends on what it is, but I think either the “use less” or “find a cheaper substitute” both work. For most food items I will find something cheaper - having worked in food packaging a long time, most of the time (but not always!) the cheaper option is the same stuff in a different package. I tend to “use less” when it comes to HBA - I can use less shampoo, or wait longer between shaving my legs.

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I am agreeing with @SaharaRose on this. Her reasoning is sound and is close to how we operate.

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I know people, who no matter what will be driven by cost. And I’ve been there, fortunately right now, we’re not. However, if SS goes away or goes way down, that may change. We have retirement, but not a lot. I worked retail for myself at $0 salary for 10 years and at minimum wage in retail for much of the rest of my working life. DH works in IT, but is in a support role and has been “down sized” more than once. We have way less than people say you need and always assumed we’d have to work… DH is.

When his previous job ended without warning, I got spooked about this. I really want to get the hey outta New England and somewhere the local market isn’t 9 miles away or we have family, It has to happen in the next 10 years or so, sooner better than later.

And, I keep trying to prepare for being really, really broke. Which is why I asked the question! I wondered if others had an answer I just hadn’t considered…

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These are the sort of questions that are valuable to ask as we age. Hubs has a pension. I taught for many years, but in a Catholic school and wages were VERY low, so SS is low and I have no retirement… We were very happy living in MO and the cost of living is very low there. But because of family circumstances (caring for my parents), we moved to Iowa and the cost of living is MUCH higher. It’s not as high as places on the coasts or in Chicago, but our income didn’t change… just the cost of living. So we had to make decisions about how to live… what to buy… what were priorities… how to stretch things… etc.

There are some things that just aren’t negotiable. Property taxes are horrible here. It takes two months of our income just to pay property tax and property insurance. Our home is nice, but is a standard 3 bedroom home on a smallish city lot. It was built in 1980, so isn’t terribly old, but on the other hand, it’s not new and constantly needs repair and updates. We could move to something much smaller and in a worse neighborhood, but even those homes are high taxes. We have seriously considered moving to a condo, and even went to see one for sale last week. It had decent space but by the time we fixed items and brought it up to date, it was going to be costly. As we age, we have to consider things like lawn care, maintainence, cleaning, etc. I recently made the decision to hire a monthly house cleaner. It’s $70 a month, and as long as I can afford it, it is helping. But I also know that this is something that I can cut if needed. Hubs is 77; he has trouble getting up on the roof for repairs anymore. And mowing is becoming more difficult. He’s considering hiring it out. If we moved to the condo, there is no more lawn care or maintainence, but on the other hand, there is a $800 monthly HOA charge. So it takes a bit of weighing and balancing to make these kinds of decisions. Our kids have all said they will come and help on these things, but they live a distance away, and that has to be factored in.

Utilities are a standard rate, so we try to be wise in use. Hubs super insulated the house a few years ago, and that helps as we can just turn off the heat/cool for hours at a time. Water/sewer costs are out of sight. I have tried watering our garden, but the cost outweighed the cost of just buying veggies. Sad. We also think our cell service is expensive. But switching to another company will only lower our rates temporarily and then that company zooms them back up.

Other costs are clothing. I am at the point that I just don’t buy much anymore, except shoes. I need good shoes to keep my feet in good shape. Food is another cost, but it is negotiable. We are blessed to have both Aldi and the Amish markets close. So we eat well, but on a very strict budget. We have no need for new furniture, new linens, new kitchen things other than appliances that break down. We don’t need any new home decor, but may need to repaint the interior walls at some point. We don’t spend much on health and beauty things, although I do get a haircut about every 3-4 months.

We have Medicare plus a supplemental policy, and we have dental insurance. We don’t carry life insurance. Auto insurance is a bummer, but again, we are at the mercy of the company. And our vehicles will probably be the last we ever buy unless there is an accident. We don’t see at our age having the need for another new vehicle. But that also means regular maintanence to keep them running.

We have two expenses that we can cut WAY back on, but choose not to. I think it is important to understand what we choose… and why we choose. Those two for us are our charitable giving and travel. Our faith practice teaches to give out of gratitude, and we choose to be generous with this. No regrets and no plans to change. Our other “luxury” is travel. We have had some expensive cruises, and some very inexpensive weekend get aways or day trips. Whichever, it refreshes our soul. But we never go into debt for this. It just is worked into our budget.

We have been out of debt many years, and I am so grateful. It was hard to scrimp and sacrifice, but worth it. It allowed us freedom to put our earnings where we wanted them.We

Another thing to consider in all of this is lifestyle. We don’t judge these things on right or wrong… or moral/ ethical vs. immoral/unethical. It differs from person to person. We like to have family and friends visit. We like to host, but do so on a budget and try to be creative and imaginative as we do so. For example, one time we had a make-your-own-pizza party. I made bread dough for crusts, and set out sauces, cheeses, etc. It was so much fun! Our friends group likes to do pot lucks, and we get a great meal at little cost to anyone, but have loads of fun. We have never seen the need to spend a lot of money entertaining. We both have art hobbies. It takes some money to buy supplies, and we know this can be cut in a moment. But art fills our soul and satisfies that creative urge. We don’t spend on “vices” such as smoking, drugs, alcohol, gambling, and the like. While that may seem like a moral choice, it is more that we just don’t enjoy that lifestyle, so why do it? We love movies and shows, but because of my poor hearing, we choose to not do this. While there are frustrating situations in my life, I choose to be happy. And that governs just about everything.

We have to inventory health. So so important as we age. We try to stay healthy, active, busy, which is good for both mental and physical health. Hubs and I both have cancer, and while it is under control, the fact is that we have CANCER! We are in our late 70s and things fall apart! LOL! So we need to constantly look to the future with all of the what-ifs.

I’m sure there is more that we consider as we make financial choices and lifestyle choices, but the fact that you are thinking seriously about all of this is a great step forward.

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Wow, @forHISglory - this is such a beautiful framework to think about expenses. There are a lot of templates and workbooks out there, but I think you have it laid out in a way that really makes it make sense.

Cost of living - you are so right that it is dependent on where we are living and that so often our choices aren’t just based on where it’s the lowest, like family or work. When we bought our house our biggest concern was to live close to my in-laws since they provided a lot of our daycare, otherwise I probably would not have picked this town. Oliver has turned 13 and I have been thinking a lot about moving somewhere else once he turns 18 and don’t have to worry about splitting custody. Cost of living, yes, but also the weather - geography (mountains? near the water?) - political climate - local economy - community - etc. In the last few years I feel really drawn to finding my in-person community and it feels like I need to move out of a small town and into a much larger/more populous area. I’m not a city person by any means, but would like to have more options for restaurants, music and arts, and connecting with other people who share my interests.

Things that aren’t negotiable or are already as low as I feel I can get them - property taxes for sure. I’m not sure how much they are out there but here I pay $4500 annually for my property and $1500 for homeowners insurance. That is just about one month of take-home salary for me, but the way I look at it is different - the property taxes are included in my mortgage, so I am already paying those in another bucket. My take home salary is also after taxes, savings, insurance so that to me is different. Overall combined that works out to just about 3.5% of my income from my job and from my child support. Maybe it’s just me, but that sounds better than one month’s worth of income. :slight_smile: I have been thinking also about what you had said earlier and above about the condo. I had it drilled into me from a young age that condo’s are a waste of money, either buy a house or rent - and I’m trying to think about it differently as the world changes. Also, like what you were saying about not wanting to do yard work maintainence - that’s important too. And house needs change - right now I have two children at home, but when it’s just me I don’t need all this space. Or kitchen space - I used to cook a lot more but now I really don’t so I don’t need a large kitchen or a new stove. I have a chest freezer because I used to stock up on things but as the kids have gotten older we don’t eat the same foods over and over so I don’t stock up as much and I probably don’t need that now.

Utilities used to vary a lot for me, but since I got the solar panels I don’t have an electric bill (but I do have a loan payment for the panels). Our town has 5 water districts and one of them is in the top 100 most expensive in the entire country - not mine, but I have never thought mine was high to begin with. I only pay water (septic tank so no sewer) and it runs about $150 every quarter. Trash is $40 a month. Cell phone service is $200 which I know isn’t the cheapest, but I’m dead set on keeping my plan (I get 1000GB of data a month and they can’t reduce the speed like they can on an unlimited plan) and it covers me, Scarlet, and both of my parents. Internet is $60 a month right now on a promo, but $80 is more typical. Work reimburses me $45.

Clothing - not a big part of my bill. I probably spend $750 a year for all three of us, and that includes shoes. Now that Scarlet isn’t growing like crazy most of what I do spend is on Oliver. I little on myself, but not much since I work at home. Food, like you said, is negotiable. I’ve been thinking of considering eating out in my food budget, because honestly probably at least 25% of the food consumed in this house is eating out. I think of you a lot when you take home leftovers from date nights and stretch meals and we do a lot of the same thing (the $8 large pizza of the month special? yeah, that happens a lot). I don’t spend a lot on furnishings house stuff other than when things wear out. Not a lot on HBA because I do stock up on those. Gas for the car and auto repairs.

Insurance comes out of my check, so it’s not something I see a lot on a regular basis, plus right now I only carry my own health insurance (my XH carries the kids). It’s $160 a month from me. Dental is $6 a month from me. Auto insurance - adding a second car and a newly licensed teenager driver has blown up this category - I went from $1200 to $5000 this year. I do carry life insurance since I have kids and want to make sure they are taken care of when if I were to pass suddenly, but will drop this once they are both adults.

On thing related to this that I didn’t see mentioned for me is healthcare costs. This year I’ve spent $4,400 out of pocket through insurance and there are many things I do for my health that don’t come under my insurance (think Botox for my ear/jaw pain). I’ll spend less in the back half of the year since I’ve hit my out of pocket max, but my total healthcare costs will be a lot higher than my property taxes and insurance.

Are there expenses we can cut back on? Yes. I do buy a lot of plants and things for my plants. I like making candles and buy candle making supplies. I do monthly massage and kick boxing classes which while I could lump them in healthcare, I haven’t so far. We have Disney+ for TV. The local hot dog place knows both of my kids on a first-name basis. I’m sure there’s more. Some of my lifestyle things do cost money - like going to yoga or meditation classes, or paying parking fees when I got out to a park, or even just my weekly dinner/drinks out with friends. I support artists by buying their work.

I started tracking my giving this year with a goal to give a total of $5,000. I haven’t updated it since June, but I am only slightly behind. Like you said, I could cut back - but I think the world needs the organizations I fund more than ever right now.

I do have debt, but I am not worried about it. I have my mortgage which should be paid off in another 7 years and I do pay extra on it. I have a car loan right now, but once it’s paid off I should be good for at least 5 years. I have my solar panels on a loan which should also pay off in 7 years. The mortgage and solar panels are both at low rates so I picked the extra payment amount specifically to have them both paid off when I’m 55.

One other thing for me that isn’t an expense for you is savings. I pay extra on my mortgage, I pay extra on my solar panels, I fund my 401K, my IRA, my HSA, my FSA, my emergency fund. All together those are about $37,000 - which is about 25% of my income. This is by far my biggest “spending” category.

Whew! That was a lot to write out, but it has made me think a bit. I’m going to consider tracking my health expenses differently next year.

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5 water districts? That’s crazy! But yes… I do feel that we have much in common in our goals and procedures.

Savings… yes, I guess I did leave that out. We no longer save as we used to because things have changed. When Hubs was teaching, about 14% of his salary was withheld for his pension plan, but nothing for SS. He was not entitled to SS. On the other hand, I had no pension plan, but had SS withheld. Keep in mind that my highest salary was $40,000 a year and that was my last year of teaching. So it wasn’t a lot withheld. We put most of my salary into savings, such as CDs, and tried to live just off Hub’s salary. His highest salary for his last year was about $60,000. After we retired, we contributed to an investment plan and we buy CDs when the rates are high enough. We no longer contribute to the investment plan, as it generates enough on its own. We have to take out the required distribution that the government dictates, but we use it to make charitable donations (which cuts the tax rate on that distribution) and put the rest of it right back into the account. Otherwise, we don’t touch that money. It’s not that we want to leave a big inheritance to the kids. Rather, we want to NOT be a burden to our family with old age costs. If there is any left over, they are welcome to it!!

And that brings me to health insurance. We are both on Medicare, and as much as I distrust most social welfare programs, I have to admit that Medicare works well. The cost of it comes directly out of SS monthly. We have a supplemental insurance plan that we pay for quarterly. Back to choices… we chose a somewhat more expensive supplemental because of our lifestyle. This particular plan covers us when we travel, and that was important to us. Except for a few small instances, it has covered every cent of expenses. For example, my bill at Mayo is well over $3 million. I have to pay about $50 every three months for a blood test that the oncologist says is vital to my cancer treatment, but the insurance company says it is not. I’m glad to pay it. We also have Medicare part D which covers drugs. I take one really high priced one that they cover only partially so that is a problem. Otherwise most of our prescriptions cost us nothing. Note: we chose to take regular Medicare and NOT Medicare Advantage. Believe me, there is no advantage to it! The horror stories of what it won’t cover …

So… all our planning takes in our immediate needs, our projected future needs, our choices and lifestyles. It’s not really a formula like you see in retirement worksheets. Those just seemed too generic to be workable. @SaharaRose … I am so proud of your thinking and planning. Thanks for sharing!

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Wow, great answers!

What I hear is much the same sort of calculations we go through. Almost everything, from TP to entertainment, we figure how to do what we want, cheaper, if possible.

There’s a restaurant nearby, we wandered in there one day and had stew. It was wonderful – big hunks of meat in a thick sauce with 2 biscuits. We both got it, $18 a plate, but took 2 portions home and ate the rest the next day. So that $36 meal actually cost $9 a portion.

Last night we were running errands after DH finished work… and they had it again. We bought it and brought about 1/2 home. I’m thinking about how to stretch it even further: serve 1/2 of what we brought home over toast tonight and put the remainder in the freezer. My intent is to use it to make beef/veg soup, which will give us at least one more serving from the same thing. THAT will reduce the cost to $7.20 a portion.

We do this sort of thing routinely. We often split meals and drink water when we’re out most of the time. We split a piece of blueberry pie last night too.

@SaharaRose if you’re ever in Peterborough, NH, the restaurant is Brady’s American Grill on 202. The stew isn’t a regular menu option, it’s an occasional “special”.

I thought there’d be enough gravy to just cut up some of the meat + gravy over toast for dinner, but there wasn’t, so I made milk gravy. I don’t have any Guiness (what they used) so my gravy was light brown rather than the rich brown of the original. I added 2 carrots and a mess o’ peas. We did have it over toast. There’s enough left for us to make one more meal out of it and I think it’s in the freezer? So, right now the cost is $9/serving, but if we manage another whole meal from it, it goes down to $4.50/serving.

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